BYU-Idaho Religion Instructor Leaves Church

Mormon Studies scholar Kirk Caudle started the summer as an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as an religion instructor at Brigham Young University-Idaho.

Last week, that all changed as Caudle resigned from the Church.

Kirk Caudle

Kirk Caudle

I was shocked to hear of this news. This past Spring, Kirk was my roommate at the Mormon Scholars in the Humanities conference.

In our conversations together at the conference, Caudle was very open about his devotion to The Book of Mormon as inspired scripture and his admiration for the Prophet Joseph Smith.

The things is…none of that has changed.


This past Sunday, in an interview with Approaching Justice, Caudle re-affirmed his love of the Book of Mormon and his admiration for the prophet Joseph Smith.

“I believe in The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith,” Caudle told me from his home in the Portland, Oregon area.

“I have had interactions, both from study and prayer, where the Holy Ghost has moved upon me in relation to The Book of Mormon,” Caudle told me. He went on to explain to me that his relationship with The Book of Mormon was more “Mormon” than academic. It is a relationship of faith, one which he said was “even irrational” from a philosophical or academic perspective. However, it is a spiritual relationship that he continues to have.

“I really have a great love and testimony of Joseph,” added Caudle. But that testimony does not extend to Brigham Young, Caudle noted, and by extension to the current LDS leadership.

For Caudle, revelations have been replaced by press releases, amicus briefs, and political posturing.

The Breaking Point

While Caudle insists that he did not leave because he was offended, two interactions with Church leadership led directly to his resignation.

At the local level, Caudle told me that he has long been shunned by local leadership. They refused to allow him to teach (his life’s passion) or to really hold any callings at all. Years of being treated like an outsider led Caudle to wonder if the outside is where he belonged.

A year ago, Caudle was excited to get the opportunity to teach online religion classes for Brigham Young University-Idaho. Teaching religion is what he is trained to do and it is something that he loves doing.

Caudle has a BA in Biblical Studies and Religious History from Cascade College and an MA in Spiritual Traditions and Ethics from Marylhurst University.

In many ways, Caudle was an anomaly amongst religion teachers at BYU-Idaho, both amongst online instructors and full-time on-campus instructors, because he actually had a graduate degree in an area related to religious studies.

“I loved the students,” Caudle told me. He specifically enjoyed the interaction he had with them. After all, his favorite activity is discussing the scriptures.

Caudle enjoyed contributing to the blog Feast upon the Word because it focused on the scriptures and helping people teach from the scriptures. Other blogs often focus on social and political controversies, but those were not the things that interested Caudle. Caudle is a teacher of scripture and not an activist.

Online courses at BYU-Idaho, for the most part, come as a ready-to-go product that is completely created and designed well before the instructors are involved with them. The instructors mostly grade assignments and respond to students messages and emails as needed.

Council of 50 300x225


Caudle went above and beyond by creating and sharing videos containing mini-lectures related to the course topic.

He also held a virtual hour-long office hour where he would answer questions from students and have discussions based on questions and topic raised in online discussions during the previous week.

Caudle had done many of these sessions without any complaints. They were voluntary sessions. Students could join in if they were interested in additional discussion and interaction.

During one particular session that touched on the succession of Church leadership from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young, 30 students joined the session. During the discussion, Caudle mentioned that the account of Brigham Young being transfigured to appear like Joseph Smith is not “entirely historical.”

One student complained to some local leaders about the session. This was the only complaint about his classes that Caudle ever heard about. It would be the last.

Following the complaint, Caudle had a 45 minute meeting with Dale Sturm, the chair of the BYU-Idaho Religion Department, and Rod Stewart, the head of Online Learning at BYU-Idaho.

Caudle was told that they did not have a problem with the content of his teaching, but they did not like his tone. If it is not in the student manual or a recent general conference it should not be taught, they added.

Sturm and Stewart threatened to terminate Caudle on the spot, but they instead allowed him to finish the course with the restriction that he have not direct contact with students. They also threatened to report him to his local Church leaders.

When Caudle pointed out that students enjoyed his classes, he was told, “We don’t care what the students think. We just want you to teach the curriculum.”

Rejection and Exile

“The Gospel is for everyone, but the Church isn’t,” Caudle said near the end of my interview with him.

When BYU-Idaho refused to renew his contract, Caudle felt rejected by the Church. It did not want him at the local level or at the institutional level.

“The Church won’t have me,” Caudle told me.

“At the heart of Mormonism, Mormonism is communal,” Caudle said. And he does not feel welcome within the LDS Church community.

Caudle still attends church, but he decided to resign because he was “tired of tip-toeing.”

He was also sick of questions such as “”How can you be a member and say XYZ.”

Now he is not a member. There is now no question. He only speaks for himself.

95 replies »

    • Heartbreaking? Not even! Good for him! He knows what the gospel is and is a follower of Jesus Christ. Not the institutional Church. I applaud him.

    • Being “offended” as a reason to leave a church is the most juvenile thing I’ve ever heard, but that’s the biggee, isn’t it.

    • …maybe you’d attack me because my first thought is heartbreaking. But I’m thinking of this teachers heart, that is being broken by such weird twistings outside of his control. It is that one kid can not do ANY research or reading, say his teacher is wrong, and get the teacher fired that is gut wrenchingly heartbreaking.

    • So, there is a lot of “Good for him” type of comments. This comes down to one question; is the Church true or not? If it is not true, who cares what Church he belongs to, or what he believes. If the Church is true, and he has left that True Church, he also left 3 things behind. 1) He loses the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. 2) He leaves behind the his Priesthood and the ability to bless others including his family through and with that Priesthood. And 3) He leaves behind his Temple covenants, sealing, etc. Again, if it isn’t true, he leaves nothing behind, but if it is true, his pride (and that is what it comes down to) has caused him to leave the blessings of the Restored Gospel behind.

      • Steve, I would like to offer you and other like minded souls some clearer perspective on the one question you pose. Is the Church true or not? You should really ask is the Gospel true and the Priesthood in order as restored by Joseph Smith? There is a big distinction here, for example(and not a perfect example) the church is like a university, an imperfect place to learn and grow as a saint, the student saints have an opportunity to learn and graduate, but not all do. The Priesthood is in charge and is like the leadership and faculty of the university, and they are only as good as they follow their charter and mission. How many of our excellent Universities in this country were founded upon correct Principles and Godliness only to become liberal and atheist today. When Christ lived on the earth and died upon the cross was the “Jewish Church True” or had they strayed from their charter and mission? Was the “Nephite Church True” when its body of believers wouldn’t follow Christ’s teachings and God’s commandments and were filled with all manner of pride and disappeared into extinction? It is true that at that time only Mormon and Moroni were known to be order in the Priesthood as are a few today(see Jacob 5:70). When Joseph Smith restored the Priesthood he laid the foundation and to stray from its principles and mission is be out of order. If they lived in our day Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor would all be fired or kicked out or excommunicated or asked to leave or resign or told to shut up or shunned or whatever you want to call it for the way they lived and taught(speaking primarily of the Adam God Doctrine and Plural Marriage, two taboo topics that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor restored) Is it possible that the Church could be out of order? Sure it is? So for your own sake please don’t make the mistake of equating the ‘Church’ to the ‘Gospel and being in Order in the Priesthood’. If one of the definitions of Priesthood is ‘to act in God’s name’ then you have to ask yourself if you stop doing what God asked are you still his Priesthood? You can read D&C 101:43-64 for a short parable about the redemption of Zion, which is as yet still unfulfilled. I hope you will benefit from this long post, in spite of my imperfect thoughts and beliefs and sometimes poor use of the english language. May God bless us all as we open our hearts and minds to learn our University Lessons.

        • Implying that the church is no longer the legitimate channel by which God reveals truth through the prophets and apostles (servants that can actually trace their priesthood and keys back to the Savior himself) is, in essence, implying that the LDS church has undergone another Great Apostasy, whereby truth has been lost/distorted, resulting in the loss of priesthood succession.

          You are thereby declaring that another restoration is necessary, right?

          If you believe in the necessity of Joseph Smith to restore the fullness of the truth that was lost during the original apostasy, then you cannot argue against the need for another restoration if you truly believe that current priesthood leadership has strayed from the path of truth.

          So, which is it? Does the current leadership of the church retain the priesthood keys and authority to use those priesthood keys, or don’t they?

          If you believe current church leaders have strayed, and are no longer the representatives of God on the earth (and thereby that another restoration is necessary), then clearly you believe that God lied as he ushered in this final dispensation when he declared that the truth will never again be taken from the face of the earth?

          Do you really think God would lie?

        • He has only said that after receiving the fullness of his gospel of giving inheritances of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into the hands of the poor as he gave in D&C 42:30 that they would go a whoring away from the greater law of equity and equality given. That since this commandment was given faithful saints have given billions of dollars worth of properties to the church or leaders of Ephraim, but they have perverted equity as Micah has foretold. They have kept all these properties and not distributed them to the poor and needy among them as he has commanded that they do. So Malachi has foretold that for this they have robbed God and should return unto the Lord’s storehouse which is the poor these properties for inheritances as he has commanded.
          That should Ephraim do this the windows of heaven would then pour out such a blessing that there will not even be room enough to receive it. ♡

        • Steve Vegas, you are a smart. And also you are humble enough to say that you will follow the Savior because, as smart as you are, you know that you know nothing next to Christ. We never think that WE could ever be “the very elect” that would be deceived in the latter days.

      • Moroni 7:14 “Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. ”

        The statements: “1) He loses the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. 2) He leaves behind the his Priesthood and the ability to bless others including his family through and with that Priesthood. And 3) He leaves behind his Temple covenants, sealing, etc.” are all false and here is why:

        1) The BOM defines the Spirit/Light of Christ the same as the Holy Ghost (Moroni 7:15-16). They both bear witness to the truth in all things and since everyone is born with the Light of Christ and is NOT bestowed through a priesthood ordinance, it can never be removed by anyone claiming priesthood authority. How else could all be alike unto God and God be no respecter of persons (2 Nephi 26:33 & Romans 2:11)?

        2) Priesthood authority is never mentioned as being part of the gospel in the keystone of the religion – the BOM. However, priestcraft is warned about in the BOM and D&C 121:36-39 … “the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.”, “in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.”, “We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, AS THEY SUPPOSE, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.” Since this is the disposition of almost all men, then we can be assured that almost all priesthood holders in the church exercise unrighteous dominion. Yet, the church does not strip them of its priesthood. The Holy Spirit doesn’t wait for hierarchal foot-dragging to strip men of their priesthood and immediately takes it from them and no where do those verses say that it is restored if they repent. There is no reason to restore something that they have already proven they are not responsible enough to use in righteousness. Verse 39 makes it clear that their authority is “supposed” and therefore pretended. This is verified in the sacrament prayers in which a priest claiming to have priesthood power and authority to act for God, actually asked God to bless the emblems, rather than doing it himself. D&C 132:7 makes it clear “I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred”. This means none of other the men in the priesthood quorums actually had priesthood power. Lastly, scripture makes it clear that the “keys” are associated with knowledge, not priesthood office. You either know the “mysteries in full” or you do not know them in full and it is obvious that Brigham Young didn’t understand much, if anything. All of the original LDS apostles were chosen by the 3 witnesses of the BOM NOT Joseph Smith. He never laid hands on any of them to bestow priesthood authority after they were selected and why would he considering what was revealed in D&C 132:7? The only person he transferred keys to was his son Joseph Smith III because knew his time on earth was about to end.

        3) The “fullness of the Gospel as revealed to the Ancient Inhabitants” (3 Nephi 12,13,14) makes absolutely no mention of temple ordinances being necessary for salvation. In fact, the BOM instructs it readers repeatedly that the things of associated with the Laws of Moses do NOT bring salvation. Outward ordinances were part of the LOM (Galatians 5:18). This is verified in D&C 137,as Alvin Smith, an atheist has already received Celestial Glory despite never having had been baptized. Likewise, if Jews and Gentile are alike unto God (2 Nephi 26:33), then so is every other religious affiliation, regardless of their performances & rituals.

      • I totally agree. Once pride enters into the picture, everything becomes fuzzy and then we lose site of what we’re doing here. Hope he re-thinks all.

    • Pearl Of Great Price
      34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

      Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
      Introduction of Book of Mormon
      Our revelations say that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of Gospel. { D&C 20:9, 27:5. 42:12, 135:3 } This is true in the sense that Book of Mormon is a record of God’s dealings with a people who had the fulness of the gospel and therefore the laws and priciples leading to the highest salvation are found recorded in that book.

      The fullness consists in those laws, doctrines, ordnances, powers, and authorities needed to enable men to gain the fullness of salvation. Mormon Doctrine page 333

      D&C 20:
      9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the bfulness of the cgospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

      D&C 27:
      5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

      D&C 42:
      12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

      D&C 135:
      3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth;
      So if that’s the case why can’t we find these teachings in the Book of Mormon ?

      1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)
      2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)
      3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)
      4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)
      5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)
      6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)
      7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)
      8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)
      9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)
      10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)
      11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)
      12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)
      13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)
      14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)
      15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)
      16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus’ plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)
      17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)
      18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)
      19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)
      20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith’s consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)
      21. Not everything you’ll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)”
      22. Jesus was Married and Practiced polygamy (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210).
      (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82).
      (Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259).
      23. No eternal hell
      LDS Apostle John Widtsoe declared, “In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation” (E. & R., p. 216). Yet, the B. of M. says, “The devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell and behold others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell” (II Nephi 28:21-22). Thus, the B. of M. explains where Mormonism got its doctrine of no hell!

      The B. of M. also says, “If ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked” (Alma 34:35).

      24. Animal sacrifice after Jesus’ blood was shed

      RESTORATION OF BLOOD SACRIFICES. We are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam’s transgression. 44 Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored. 45

      The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.

      3 Nephi 9:19 Jesus was supposed to have said: “And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.”

      25. Atonement happened in Garden of Gethsemane

      The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not view the atonement of Christ in the biblical and historical Christian manner. Instead of the atonement occurring on the cross, Mormonism teaches that the atonement occurred primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus shed His blood. Please consider the following quotes from a BYU professor and the Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie.
      •BYU professor Robert J. Matthews, who on page 282 of his book, A Bible! A Bible!, wrote, “It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood-more so than on the cross.”
      •Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, stated, “Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane,” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 774,
      1 Nephi 11:33
      And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
      26. Eternal Progression
      27. Maintaining genealogical records
      28. Mormons hold keys to the kingdom
      29 . Eternal Families
      30 . creation from matter and Ex Nihilo wrong

      Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

      • Maybe there not in the book of Mormon because there not part of the true gospel of the savior. ..maybe they are the philosophy s of men…some where in the d &c the lord say the church is under condemnation because we don’t believe the lord or his book of Mormon. ..and I plead guilty..lam repenting of this un belif…for example what did we just learn. .the church apologies forfor the races false doctorin of blacks and the priesthood. …invented bybrigham young….his personal pregidious…philosophy of man….now created and believe d as a true doctorin…now current leader s denounce it as false doctrines and publicly apologies to the world……go to the bible you can make a case for against the seed of cain…..go to the book of Mormon. It say black white bond women all equal in gods eyes they didn’t qualify that statement. …..Joseph Smith baptize and ordained my fellow brothers of color. …..shame on mefor not be living the lord or the book…..the b of m was given to us because the bibe became corrupted…..so in my mind the lord and the book of Mormon overide the bible AND the so called PROFITS……so what other false doctrine have entered into the church. ….these false doctrine are condemning us……so now I’m taking the book of Mormon and researching the doctrine s this church claims to be true. Against what the b of m teachs…..so check this out. …the profits declared blacks and preisthood a false racist doctrine. …then how did they receive a revelation from the Lord to lift the ban on black sand restore the priesthood? ????…..hey maybe the lord is in collusion in deciving the saints…….what do the profits teach…….we won’t lead you asstray…..the lord will take us before we can………..lol…we are so intellectually stupid …we deserve to be led astray. …..shame on me. ….god bless us

  1. “When Caudle pointed out that students enjoyed his classes, he was told, “”We don’t care what the students think. We just want you to teach the curriculum.”

    I was going to say “glorified high school,” but that would be giving the institution too much credit.

    • When administrators and instructors at a university can say, “we don’t care what students think,” with a straight face, that is not a healthy university.

    • Why would God tell Joseph Smith JR the Creeds were an abomination and professors were corrupt and the then give Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon which agreed with these Creeds and professors?

      Pearl of Great Price , Joseph Smith History

      19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
      Here are Joseph Smith statements against the Creeds and the Book of Mormon

      Joseph Smith: Many men say there is one God; the Father, the
      son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say this is a strange God
      anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . . All
      are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the
      biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a
      giant or a monster.“

      (History of the Church * Volume 6 Page 476 * 1844

      “God himself was
      once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder
      heavens. That is the great secret… …I am going to tell you how God came to be
      God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will
      refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the
      first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and
      to know…that he was once a man like us…. Here, then, is eternal life – to
      know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods
      yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done
      before you… (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in
      Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol.
      6, 305-307,)”

      2 Nephi 31:
      21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

      Alma 11:
      44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

      Mormon 7:
      7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

      The Testimony of Three Witnesses
      And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
      Oliver Cowdery
      David Whitmer
      Martin Harris

      Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
      28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

      2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

      Moroni 7:22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting , behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

      Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

      Mormon 9:9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever , and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

      Hebrews 12: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

      2 Nephi 19:9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

      Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

      3 Nephi 19:
      18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

      Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

      An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

      Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.

      Mosiah 4: 9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

      Mormons follow a different Christ then Christians…
      The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.” (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70)
      Mormons also follow a different Jesus than Book of Mormon

  2. I don’t want to debate or judge his reasons for leaving, since he definitely seems to have prayerfully considered his actions. I was hoping for a little clarification, though.

    He says that the church won’t have him, but the only rejection that I can see is that both his bishop and the school won’t let him teach. Is there more to the story? It’s not that such things are really my business, but saying that the church won’t have him for that reason alone seems like a bit of a stretch.

    • This is yet another Kate Kelly incident. In both cases, their freedom of though is dwarfed by The Church, and freedom of movement is monitored. Kate Kelly was wrongfully excommunicated. The same would have probably happened to Kirk Caudle if he hadn’t resigned. The Church is too powerful, playing gods in members’ lives.

      • While the Mormon Church is not a democracy, the vast majority of its members affirm the behavior of their leadership in such actions. I’m glad that Kirk left on his own terms and preserved his worth and dignity and didn’t try and change the organization. Life is too short to waste it on that activity. Let the majority do their thing, but don’t stick around and let them poke you in the eye…bad for the self-esteem. Not sure why he feels compelled to still attend that church when there are other options?

      • I certainly do agree on that.As soon as a man thinks he has some power he certainly will missuse it.That is why the world looks like it does.

        • Humanity should be grateful for that Monica Dahlby and her communists not are ruling the world.

  3. I am grateful that Kirk was willing to share his thoughts and experiences with us. I think that the constant message that teaching history, or having our own thoughts, is squeezing a lot of people into inactivity or resignation. That seems to be acceptable to the “institutional church, which is indeed heartbreaking.

  4. Is it surprising that someone who doesn’t have a testimony of the prophetic calling of Brigham Young through Thomas S. Monson isn’t called to teach in the Church? Not to me.

    • A church no, a university yes. If you are punished or intimidated or nobbled by a university for teaching verifiable truth, then it’s accreditation should be revoked

      • Despite Bloggernacle yammering to the contrary, the accrediting agencies are just fine with BYU’s requirement that its faculty be temple recommend holders (who aver that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, seer, and revelator).

        • That’s a straw man. No one is saying they can’t believe Monson is a prophet. The argument is it shouldn’t matter that one DISbelieves Monson is a prophet as long as that person still teaches truth.

    • I am not sure how you took a question on the historicity of the claims Brigham Young was transfigured into Joseph Smith as a leap that he doesn’t have a testimony of Brigham Young’s prophetic calling. I think you took a leap and are misrepresenting Kirk.

      • I concluded that Caudle doesn’t have a testimony of Brigham Young and the current LDS leadership from this passage: “‘I really have a great love and testimony of Joseph,’ added Caudle. But that testimony does not extend to Brigham Young, Caudle noted, and by extension to the current LDS leadership.”

    • What is a testimony anyways. You have an experience that is exactly the same than the one other people have in difference circumstances including other churches. Testimony is all about a decision. You make the decision to say that a Church is true. What you know is many times exactly the same as what the guy who is saying that the church isn’t true. It is all about what you decide say, that is what makes the difference.

      • I’m not aware of analogues to the Latter-day Saint notions of “testimony” and “personal revelation” in other religions. I often hear it said (usually by no-longer-believing Mormons) that there are such analogues, but I am not aware of any other religion that promotes ideas similar to those embodied by Moroni 10:3-5, nor of any other religious adherents that typically appeal to “personal revelation” as the source of their particular doctrinal orientation and convictions.

        This is not to say that LDS testimonies and personal revelation do, in fact, proceed from “The” God or “a” god or “the gods” or extraterrestials or any other supernatural source. I’m just saying that, to my knowledge (which could very well be lacking in this respect), LDS ideas in relation to these things are more or less unique.

      • I had a teacher at BYU-I (not a religion teacher BTW) tell me that she was called to teach, and set apart by priesthood. She then testified that her homework should be treated as a calling from God.

    • Is it surprising that someone who has surely read about Brigham Young’s Blood Atonement, Adam-God, men on the moon, astrology believing, diving rod using, bar owning, Valley Tan Whiskey, slavery, blacks and the priesthood, polygamy doctrines isn’t convinced Bring ‘Em Young wasn’t a prophet, seer or revelator? Not to me! If the church isn’t a democracy then what is the Law of Common Consent? IF a member is always supposed to cast a sustaining vote, then what is the purpose of the voting process? If the members are supposed to beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing that enter the flock and discern between false prophets and false doctrines, then are they supposed to discard their findings just because it exposes one or more of their own? This “we will never lead the members astray” leadership mythology was obviously proven false by B.Y., so for modern leaders to make such claims defies any level of common sense. It is pretty obvious why none of Joseph Smith’s family followed the Brighamites west.

      Just a little research reveals that the Gospel According to Brigham Young has absolutely nothing to do with the True Gospel or the things taught in the BOM or by Joseph Smith. And since the evidence overwhelmingly exposes B.Y. to be a false prophet, who corrupted the affairs of the kingdom (Mosiah Chapter 11) then what other conclusion is one to come to other than those that succeeded him were/are also? Ever wonder why the only two things that LDS missionaries challenge investigators pray about are the authenticity of the BOM and Joseph Smith? Brigham Young published a pamphlet declaring Joseph Smith a fallen prophet and completely ignored what the BOM and the 1835 edition of the D&C said about polygamy. “In my doctrinal teachings I have taught many things not written in any book, ancient or modern, and yet, notwithstanding the many things I have told the people. I have never looked into the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Doctrine and Covenants, or any of our church works to see whether they agreed with them or not. When I have spoken by the power of God and the Holy Ghost, it is truth, it is scripture, and I have no fears but that it will agree with all that has been revealed in every particular.” May 21, 1877 – Brigham Young

      Yet when Brigham Young admits to doing what they falsely accuse Kate Kelly and others like her of doing they get excommunicated and Brigham Young remains revered. J.S. is the only one that has had a heavenly manifestation and the only one that made mention or use of the Urim and Thummim. How is someone that distances themselves from apostasy an apostate? Was Lehi’s party supposed to remain in Jerusalem and be destroyed along with it or distance himself from the awful situation that was to come? Knowing what he did, why would he even want to work for an institution that bears Brigham Young’s name?

  5. I agree with N.W. Clerk, teaching at BYU is not a right, but a grave privilege and responsibility. The university has an obligation to its students to ensure that those that teach them have a testimony of the living prophet and all the prophets of this dispensation, and that they are not harming the students’ testimonies as a result of personal doubts. He is welcome in the Church, but may not be qualified to teach students at BYU.

    • He only wanted to teach true history.
      He would have only used lds official sources.
      Note he could only use it recent general conference talks… Lest one finds gems like this by Brigham talking about Emma Smith…

      “In Joseph’s da[y] she [Emma] tried to throw me, Br. Heber, Br. Willard Richards and the Twelve Apostles out of the Church, and tried to destroy the whole church and I know it.

      “Joseph himself testified before high Heaven more than once that she had administered poison to him. There are men and women present today who can bear witness that more hell was never wrapped up in any human being than there is in her. She gave him too heavy a dose and he vomited it up and was saved by faith.” (“BYA,” vol. 4 Gen. Conf. 7 Oct. 1863)

    • Symphonyofdissent: interesting name for a TBM. I assume you are a TBM due to your comment. My reply to you…. how is teaching historical fact wrong? He’s not harming their testimony. …. the Church, by not taking historical accuracy, is creating personal doubts. His integrity smacked up against the Correlation Department’s lack of honesty in its portrayal of history. As long as the correlation department continues to do this….. the Church will continue to lose is best and brightest. Many of us have been forced to make a choice: church or gospel. If we attempt to honestly address church history, we are in danger of losing membership. This is why he said. ..’the gospel is for everyone, but the church isn’t. ‘ 🙋🙅 do what is right let the consequence follow. ….

      • “… the Church will continue to lose is best and brightest.”

        I literally laughed out loud when I read this. I just love it when Mormon apostates flatter themselves as being among the “best and brightest.” And my extensive experience with them over the years has left me with very little reason to doubt that they sincerely consider themselves the possessors of a superior degree of education and intellect in comparison to the ignorant fools who occupy the majority of the pew space in Sacrament Meeting.

        Oddly enough, they and Caudle just can’t understand why they inevitably find themselves marginalized in Mormon society.

    • @Symphonyofdissent

      Who said teaching at BYU is a “right”? Why would you argue a point no one has contested?

      The university has NO obligation to ensure that those who teach have a testimony of the living prophet…I had TWO teachers at BYU who were not LDS and openly so. They did not slip through the cracks of discernment – it is simply not a requirement.

      • Of course BYU is a right! Every Mormon subsidizes BYU whether they like it or not. The American taxpayer also subsidizes BYU. Regarding your non-LDS teachers, BYU accords non-LDS far more rights than LDS students and teachers. LDS teaches must have a “testimony” (LDS term for indoctrinated belief) in the so-called prophets, but non-LDS are not required to. Likewise, non-LDS students are allowed and can change religion, but LDS students must remain LDS and blindly obedient to the whims of their local leaders to attend.

      • BYU will hire non LDS teachers for specific departments. It will not hire a non LDS teacher to teach religion classes except under very particular circumstances (perhaps an expert in Judaism or Catholicism teaching a class about those religions)… I think the difference is apparent.

  6. All this nonsense over a man made religion, to believe in any of this tripe would make you nuttier than Squirrel shit!

    • Crude, but I have a question for you. Do you believe in any religion? Is there one that isn’t man made? Since God isn’t here, how else can religion come about?

    • When someone goes to bed at night thinking, “Someone has to straighten this out,” and wakes up in the morning thinking, ” Someone has to straighten this out,” that person is being driven by adversity. I don’t know anything about this man or his situation. I am, however, learning much about our spirits. We dont always stop to consider why we are feeling angry or just bothered by something. Where is the motivation coming from. God whispers. Satan screams and complains. Satan will be so crafty that, “even the very elect shall fall.”

      • “Satan will be so crafty that, “even the very elect shall fall.””
        Pleeze! get your scripture quotes correct. I feel like I should be on a mind altering substance when I read stuff like this.

        “IF POSSIBLE”

        Joseph Smith Matthew 22:22 For in those days there shall also arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.

        • Yes, Heaven forbid indeed. When one changes scripture, the term applicable is “wresting.” As a people we don’t know scripture and are deceived. It happens all the time in the modern Church. I believe we are so ill read and so willing to believe others that we are deceived and perpetuate our unbelief on others. It needs to stop. We need a correct belief of our condition and our God. It’s not a casual Ensign reading project.

      • Pulling the Boogyman card adds nothing to the conversation. People are responsible for their own actions and thoughts, not the red monster under the bed. And there is nothing especially elect about Mormons. But enjoy the Koolaid anyway.

      • It is nothing but pathetic to blame a rational thought to the influence of some supposed unseen power. Do you honestly believe the human mind/soul is so pliable that we have no control and in turn responsibility for our thought turned into action.

      • I think ya’ll missed Sandy’s main point. It seems to me that she’s talking about an inward state, analogous either to a Godly whisper or a satanic scream. Satan is called the accuser (Rev. 12:10) whereas Christ was not sent to condemn but to save (John 3:17). We each have the potential within us to be an accuser or a healer. I think Sandy is only asking us to consider which internal voice we are listening to by considering whether we are acting from a place of anger or from a place of peace (see also Galatians 5: 22-23).

  7. The historical evidence for the transfiguration of Brigham Young is contested. No one’s testimony of the Gospel rests on this claim. Caudle did nothing wrong, and his personal beliefs outside of class have no bearing on his ability to teach history. Yes, teaching at BYU is not a right. But it should also not be contingent upon secret standards of adherence to Mormon folklore either. I am not surprised that Caudle lost his contract, but I am disappointed at the men who canned him for this reason. Perhaps the next guy will lose his job for not believing in Moon Quakers or Lost Tribes under the North Pole.

    • All one has to do is correctly read D&C Section 129 and they know that the Brigham Young transformation story is a fabrication because it does NOT qualify as an administration from God! Neither does Wilford Woodruff’s claims of about having the Founding Fathers appear to him in the St. George Temple and Lorenzo Snows claims that the Savior appeared to him in a hallway of the SLC temple because they NEVER administered the test to determine if what they were seeing was of God or Lucifer transforming himself into an angel of light. These were all stories invented for personal gain and control over the minds of the members by claiming the miraculous. The story about the Seagulls and the crickets was also greatly embellished.

  8. Never allow those unqualified to make judgement on folks like Caudle.

    All LDS historians understand problems exist with BY’s ‘transformation’ on 8 Aug 1844.

    To say that is not so is to deny the church’s commitment to seeking the truth.

  9. No one who faces the truth about what Mormonism is can remain a member if they are honest with themselves.

  10. A couple things. I am a graduate student in Religious Studies at BYU-Provo right now, and the chair of the Church History and Doctrine Department, Richard Bennett, has made stronger statements than Caudle did about the dubious history of the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young. Also, he told a story where he, THIS TERM (Summer 2014), rebuked a current faculty member who taught that the earth shook in Kanesville, IA when Brigham was sustained. He said to that faculty member, “you are mythologizing my religion, and I am offended by that!” He told another story where he dressed down a professor for sharing a faith-promoting rumor about the Three Nephites ministering to Wilford Woodruff in the Logan temple. Dr. Bennett is a deadly serious scholar. Go read his work. To put the idea forward that BYU and CES are not shifting their thinking on openness in history is utterly ridiculous. They talk to us about it literally every day. Seminary curriculum has also changed significantly and new CES courses are on the horizon to address these issues even more fully.
    So let’s get one thing straight- there is no way possible that Caudle was let go simply because of this statement. It is impossible. Brent Top is the Dean of Religious Education at BYU-Provo and he is 100% on board with teaching accurate, reliable, verifiable church history. I have witnessed him argue many times against conservative thinking related to church history and doctrine.
    Last point. Caudle left the church and slammed the door behind himself. Who- if they are faithful,believing member- does that? He didn’t experience some new faith crisis. It’s not like he just got rocked by polyandry or the Book of Abraham-he just left!
    If a teacher doesn’t believe that the prophets are what they say they are, they can’t teach at BYU. He knew that from day one; if you are unworthy of your temple recommend, you are gone. By definition, he was unworthy of a temple recommend because he does not believe that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God. Isn’t that a requirement to enter the temple? So there it is.
    It is possible that his situation was mismanaged and maybe even mean. Maybe the Dean said something stupid as he rebuked Caudle. Very possible. Maybe some people at BYU-I were vindictive and deceptive about him. Very possible.
    However…please don’t try to connect Caudle’s apostasy to his statement about the transfiguration. He left the church because he thinks the church has lost its way. His feelings were hurt when his contract wasn’t renewed
    Chris Henrichsen- you didn’t leave the church when BYU didn’t renew your visiting professorship. I took two classes from you (Political Liberalism and Early American Political Thought in 2009). I loved you and thought you were awesome! I was super disappointed when I heard the news, but guess what? You’re still in the church. People don’t just leave the church because they feel slighted. They leave because they don’t think that the church is what is claims to be. And if that is someone’s feeling- as a matter of integrity-they should never try to teach religion at BYU-I. Stay in the church,yes, but don’t try to teach something you do not believe.

    • Wow. I, don’t know where to start. Very much enjoyed reading your post.

      So Bennett is allowed to state someone is “mythologizing my religion” in relation to the perpetuating of false claims related to early lds historical events.
      Hmm. Interesting

      >>. Brent Top is the Dean of Religious Education at BYU-Provo and he is 100% on board with teaching accurate, reliable, verifiable church history. I have witnessed him argue many times against conservative thinking related to church history and doctrine.
      Last point. Caudle left the church and slammed the door behind himself. Who- if they are faithful,believing member- does that? He didn’t experience some new faith crisis. It’s not like he just got rocked by polyandry or the Book of Abraham-he just left!<<<

      I will have someone post your comment over at reddit and provide a link.

      I think your comments are extremely insightful, and very interesting.

      I know a lot of people will want to discuss this with you, and I expect it will be in an open, polite, respectful manner.

      If you would care to visit to discuss I believe it will be a good, discussion.

      The people there may challenge your observations, but from what you have posted I believe you are more than capable of expressing your position.

      I hope it is a good discussion

      Thank you

      Here is the link

      • Wow. Don’t bother going to that reddit thread. The comments and questions from the “exmormons” are predictable, and add no insight.

        • What is predictable? That he didn’t respond or enter the discussion, or that you act as a censorship coordinator?

          Fwiw, these were the first 3 posts. Do you think the insight might come once he arrives and says he will engage ?

          Sounds to me like you are worried people might go there to discuss this?

          –]TruthAboutTithing[S] 1 point 20 hours ago
          Your comment :>? He didn’t experience some new faith crisis. It’s not like he just got rocked by polyandry or the Book of Abraham
          Can you elaborate on what issues in these you are referring to that might cause people to have a faith crisis?
          Thank you

          [–]Landonian 1 point 18 hours ago*
          Why do you feel that someone who doesn’t believe Thomas Monson is a prophet of God can’t teach religion at BYU? If someone with a degree in religious studies teaches based on evidence, facts, and current events, why are they not qualified to teach religion at BYU?

          [–]vh65 1 point 18 hours ago
          That was an intelligent discussion of some of the issues. Personally, it sounds to me like the instructor is conflicted about his beliefs and may, after learning more about Smith, lose faith altogether. I am sure this experience was a catalyst for reevaluation.
          That said, academic politics can be crazy everywhere, and much less would be tolorated from a new adjunct than a tenured faculty membe

    • I think it’s just as plausible that challenging the historicity of the BY transfiguration story is safe for a CES employee in Provo and simultaneously completely unsayable at BYU-I. I don’t think the two institutions coordinate their efforts.

      • “I think it’s just as plausible that challenging the historicity of the BY transfiguration story is safe for a CES employee in Provo and simultaneously completely unsayable at BYU-I. I don’t think the two institutions coordinate their efforts.”
        Your thoughts are wrong. They absolutely coordinate efforts. BYU, BYU-I, BYU-H, S&I, and LDSBC deans and directors meet regularly with Elder Paul V. Johnson. I know for a fact they met on Monday at the church office building.

        • They absolutely do coordinate, but the actions, sentiments, and what’s allowed are VERY different between the two schools. I’m a BYUI graduate and I took several classes at BYU when I was on a break from the former and trust me, stuff like Kirk’s comment about the historicity of the BY event is NOT OKAY at BYUI. Anything that can be misconstrued as an effort to shake the testimonies of students is grounds for termination, especially in the religion department.

        • That may be the case, but I doubt they coordinate on the level of which contract instructors to keep or let go. I am sure Brooke has it right.

  11. Let’s grow up here, folks. Caudle is the victim here, not the church. Love him, care for him, pray for him, but do not judge him. Not your role.

  12. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was given two direct commandments that no other church or family upon this earth have been given.

    God himself gave to his beloved son Jesus Christ to give to the church a commandment that no one who belonged to the church of the living God would be exempt from:

    “To be equal in their temporal things”

    And they were also given another direct commandment to help bring this about:

    And behold, thou wilt remember the poor, and consecrate of thy properties for their support that which thou hast to impart unto them, with a covenant and a deed that cannot be broken.

    These two direct commandments given to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have been outright rejected by the leaders of this house of Ephraim.

    And as such they have gone a whoring away from the law of God and have joined with the Mother of Harlots and Abominations.

    This is a nightmare they need to awaken from and acknowledge.

    Look to the words of Joel that Moroni told Joseph Smith three times to repeat that their could be no mistake, that the words of Joel as were in the days of Peter and his fellow apostles was not quite yet but soon to be.

    It is time the old men and administers of the law awaken and give ear, Hath this been in their day?

    Be ashamed and return and repent and atone with broken hearts and contrite spirits and bring his bride out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and goodness and righteousness and purity of heart. ♡

    See to it that this feast of fat things required of equity and justice is prepared by opening your hands wide unto the poor and needy among you by giving covenants and deeds of title held, that cannot be broken, into their hands. ♡

    And be glad and rejoice therein and call a solemn assembly after preparing his bride and present her unto the Lamb of God that the bridegroom may finally come forth and say “Here I am” ♡

    Awaken from this nightmare O house of Ephraim and return to seek the face of the Lord Jesus Christ face to face, an be baptized with cloven tongues of fire and power from on high for the blessings of God upon you.

    That the blind and the deaf and the lame will come into the marriage of the Lamb and partake of the supper of God. ♡

  13. I know kirk personally. I grew up with him. This is same old kirk. His personal beliefs are very contrary to the beliefs of the church. Whether it is political or doctrinal, kirk has been far out there. His teaching are not in line with mormon teaching. He teaches main stream Christianity. He is a proud communist or socialist. He is pro gay marriage. He didn’t believe in the prophets.

    • Well, if “main stream Christianity” means following the teachings of Jesus Christ, then what exactly is wrong with that? Nowhere in Book of Mormon & Jesus’ teaching is homosexuality condemned and the Old Testament’s condemnation of it are the things of the Laws of Moses, which the BOM repeatedly declares dead teachings. For the Old Testament to promote incest and condemn homosexuals to death is just one of many examples of the hypocrisy of the Abrahamic religions. Anyone familiar with the United Order knows it was borderline Marxism and definitely promoted Socialism, so once again, I have to ask what’s your beef, especially since LDS take an oath to live the Law of Consecration, if called upon because it is the opposite of Republican platforms (Acts 2:44-45). I don’t see it as an issue of not believing in the prophets because he was adamant that he maintained his belief in Joseph Smith; he just doesn’t believe in the FALSE PROPHETS because by their fruits he knew them. And since the Bible warns its readers to beware of false prophets and false doctrine and wolves in sheep’s clothing entering into the flock, why should he sustain them, once exposed by the Holy Ghost? Wouldn’t that be blasphemy of the Holy Ghost – the unpardonable sin? Those that are able to walk away from the Church are far more likely to understand the difference in the True Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Gospel According to Brigham Young. In other words, the understand the difference in the Kingdom of God that lies within (Luke 17:21) and organized religion or a church (Galatians 5:18, 1 John 2:27). In fine, those that understand correct principles are able to govern themselves and not have the philosophies of men dictating every aspect of their lives and commanding them in all things. They also call B.S. when the blindly obedient claim, “all is well in Zion”!

  14. There’s obviously more to the story than is given here. First, we only know one side because the BYU-I administrators and Church leaders mentioned in the story are not at liberty to tell their side of the story. In cases like this confidentiality expectations are usually honored, and people who leave the Church or are excommunicated are (in either case) allowed the right to tell their own story. Second, the process of leaving the Church, or any organization with which one has long been affiliated, may be quick in the external details, but is rarely if ever quick in the internal processes. Most likely, Kirk had been questioning (e.g. leadership since BY) for quite some time. Likely his local leaders knew this, and probably also his students. Kirk most likely wasn’t being given additional teaching opportunities within the Church because those who would make such offers were sensing that he didn’t believe important aspects of Church doctrine. By his “quick” decision to leave the Church, he proved them right.

    In contrast, there are people quite close to me who have been mistreated either by administrators in Church employment settings, or by local ecclesiastical leaders. Even though they knew their administrator or leader was wrong, they haven’t left the Church because they know that even otherwise well-meaning and inspired mortals can be fallible, and they still have a solid witness of the truths found in the Church.

    I also know some non-members who are “tenured” BYU faculty. They obviously don’t believe everything the Church teaches. If a student asked, I’m sure they would be free to say what they believed–no less than any other faculty member–as long as they didn’t undermine their student’s own faith or badmouth their employer. In a conversation about religion with one of these when I was a grad student at BYU, he told me that he had greater academic and religious freedom at BYU than he had previously at an institution grounded in his own faith tradition. Another non-Mormon faculty member has held (officially sanctioned) evangelical Bible study groups at BYU. These are honest and extremely well-qualified scholars, who are well known in their fields. Similarly, a Muslim colleague who received two graduate degrees at BYU told me that she was treated more like a sister by her Mormon neighbors (on-campus BYU housing), than by her Muslim friends. Why are we hearing only one side of the story here?

    Acting as though you believe one thing when you in fact believe another is a form of dishonesty, and students typically see right through it. Even in a non-religious workplace you can easily tell the difference between the company representative who believes in the product/service being offered and one who is only going through the motions. I would rather have a class from an honest non-Mormon at BYU, who was frank with his/her beliefs, than from a dishonest “Mormon”. People who pretend to be one thing when they are in fact another are often the worst kind of deceivers, whether intentionally or not.

    No matter where you work, you won’t last long by secretly undermining “customer” confidence in your employer. The most honest thing to do if you have a problem with your employer would be to either go to the employer with your concerns, or to quit your job as a company “representative” before you start badmouthing it to customers.

  15. Ugh. So sad. BYUI has a way of just getting to people and making them doubt the institutions of the Church altogether. Wish he would not have made that decision based on his experience with the knuckleheads at the university. He is a good man and did nothing wrong! We would all benefit in the Church from having such a faithful scholar among us! How I hope and pray that he will come back! I hope that one day the doings of those who treat others like such crap will come back to them. They will see what they have done.

  16. Thanks for sharing. A sad loss of someone who sounds like a strong teacher. I’m sure there are many post-secondaries that would love to have him.

  17. I will leave the Church in a flash just as soon as I find one that teaches doctrine that is more internally consistent. Can someone direct me to one? I despise churches that teach nonsense with pretended authority. The truth does not contradict itself. Other religions do. How can someone dump the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints until he has found another that makes more sense?

    • No church is perfect because it’s full of imperfect people. I am a Christian and happen to attend an Anglican Church at present. I don’t argue over detail and doctrine but simply accept Jesus Christ as my saviour. As long as a church teaches the bible, then I am happy to worship there.

    • Denver Snuffer, commissioned by JC, has finished giving ten lectures teaching truth. Do yourself a favor and read them! They are outstanding and have more truth and Doctrine of Christ given since Joseph Smith.

      • I am aware of Denver Snuffer’s claim and received no divine confirmation yet. My closest friend has been telling me about him, and I have been reading his website. I may read his book relating his face-to-face encounter with the Second Comforter. But until I received the applicable instructions from God, I will reserve my judgement.

  18. From the description of Kirk Caudle’s course duties it seems like a stretch to call him a course instructor; his duties all sound like those of a teaching assistant, and I can’t get too excited about BYU-Idaho removing a TA who is going off script. On the other hand, he is probably referred to as a course instructor because he was the only employee of the university that students registered for the course dealt with, and that part I find disturbing—university education carried out soley by expendable TAs.

    • There is no faculty rank at BYUI, everyone is just a faculty member. From part-time-adjunct-online to fulltime-oncampus. They obviously treat the PTAOs like fillers that need babysitters, as evidenced by this incident.

  19. What a bunch of bullies! They have no shame to threat the man with telling his local leaders and then forbid him to have any contact with the students, and only teach from the church manual, etc.

    Church history is full of staff they don’t want people to know. That is the problem. The church made it very clear they want to control all the information members receive. It doesn’t matter if the information is true, if it makes the church look bad, then they don’t want anyone to know. Even though there is a lot of stuff that remained hidden in the past, that is over now. We have access to Internet and other resources and we are all getting more and more information about church history whether they like it or not. Church leaders need to grow up and face the truth of their history instead of trying to not talk about it and to shush those who want to share the information.

  20. Yeah, it looks like there is an excommunication fever going on in the church. People are suddenly endowed with unlimited power and they are giving away threats of excommunication like if they were giving away flyers. Unrighteous DOMINIUM? It looks like that to me. The church really needs to set up a system of checks and balances within its organization of priesthood leadership to make sure members are not harrassed, bullied, threatened, black mailed, etc. if leadership continues to exercise their power unchecked, like in this situation, we are soon going to,be known as “the mormon mafia.”

  21. GOOD GRIEF! This young man is threstened and treated poorly, yet people like John Dehlin ( who has publicly stated he no longers believes and is an Atheist) and Tom Phillips ( who sued Thomas Monson and is now an Atheist) are still members and have not faced any disciplinary actions. Unbelievable!!

    The arrogance of his superiors and the arrogance of his local leaders. These are the people that the Salt Lake City church leaders need to investigate for the way they treated Mr. Caudle. It is disturbing the way leaders can treat members and the member has no recourse.
    @Bonny: Exactly!
    I have been treated by my ward leaders and members in some of the same way Mr. Caudle was treated. I finally quit going to church. After eight years of not going a new Bishop asked what the problem was. I told him I could no longer stomach the people.

    I am not going to argue with Mr. Caudle or others about proof of Brigham Young sounding like Joseph Smith.

    • They won’t ex Dehlin because he has too many followers.

      They_can’t_ex Phillips because they gave him a Second Anointing…and if they do it would be too confronting to all the hierarchy couples they have given it to

  22. GOOD GRIEF! This young man is threstened and treated poorly, yet people like John Dehlin ( who has publicly stated he no longers believes and is an Atheist) and Tom Phillips ( who sued Thomas Monson and is now an Atheist) are still members and have not faced any disciplinary actions. Unbelievable!!

    The arrogance of his superiors and the arrogance of his local leaders. These are the people that the Salt Lake City church leaders need to investigate for the way they treated Mr. Caudle. It is disturbing the way leaders can treat members and the member has no recourse.
    @Bonny: Exactly!
    I have been treated by my ward leaders and members in some of the same way Mr. Caudle was treated. I finally quit going to church. After eight years of not going a new Bishop asked what the problem was. I told him I could no longer stomach the people.

    I am not going to argue with Mr. Caudle or others about proof of Brigham Young sounding like Joseph Smith. There are personal diaries of people who witnessed that event. I actually read one. Did everyone present witness it? No. Also concerning the so called Adam-God doctrine of Brigham Young: what BY said is true. Most of what he said was misunderstood and consequently written down wrong. BY was not good at clarifying or explaining either. I did research into this and one must go back into ancient Jewish beliefs and understand Jewish terminology and teachings. The members did not “get” it and still do not today. That is why the SLC leaders just let it go, and to sound more mainstream Christian. The SLC leaders really should address Adam-God and put it to rest once and for all. Since BY some Apostles and other higher up leaders did not understand what BY was teaching, to this day. I actually got into trouble for defending BY and Adam-God at church. Go figure.

    • Adam-God theory/doctrine is no problem for Church leadership, and they should not give it up. It is too handy as an indicator. By means of these teachings the leaders of the Church can easily spot the apostates, dissidents and Fundies.

  23. @Mike: you make some very good points. Even though I went inactive I still believed in the Gospel. I am starting to become active. Since I started going back to church I have had five months of illness that has kept me away. But I will not let that get to me.

  24. The war in heaven was fueled by Lucifer causing a loss of trust that Heavenly Father and Jehovah would do what they said that they would do. It was also fueled by Lucifer’s irrational belief that he was above his Father and all others in intelligence and strength.

    None of us comes to this earth with an “empty” slate. We all come with our souls able to hear and to discern the voice of the Master to the degree that we were willing to cultivate that sensitivity in the pre-mortal life. We then are exposed to the opportunity to hear and to accept or reject His voice.

    It took a while to ponder evil and why it would even exist, but then to realize that it was, by nature, irrational. There is much that we, as weak mortals, often do that borders more on irrational than rational and true. We were told that God’s thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. For us to stand as accusers of our brethren, from the Prophets to the least among us is definitely bathed in irrational perception and performance born out of a lack of love for our brothers and sisters. It is not about “us” alone.

    I do understand that God is indeed omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. He is possessed of total and informed love of all His children. Us, not so much…so when we take it upon ourselves to attempt to second guess or even to question whether God is still in control of His church and not minding His “Work and Glory” seems to me to smack of distrust and irrationality.

    I always pray every day to God to not let me die “stupid”. I do not want to not be obedient to the voice of God nor to question His love for each and everyone of His children. I do not want to be easily offended nor to be doing this life “my way” (totally irrational).

    Christ went from “grace to grace” and we were counseled to go “line upon line and precept upon precept” with the rational understanding that we can’t come close to fleshing out the variables generated by weakened natural men and women. Last time I looked, weakness was not sin and even George Bernard Shaw recognized that “the real problem with communication is the illusion that it has occurred”.

    I believe that I will stay trusting a loving Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I will trust the perfect and not be derailed by the imperfect. I will trust in the light of Christ, the Holy Ghost speaking profoundly the word of Christ, and in the true and sure word over the irrational accusing, distrustful, quick to be offended “naturals”. I will trust in the Prophets of which I have received a confirmation of through means too holy to mention here. I will trust in the wisdom of Christ who said that He came to do the will of the Father and to testify of His being the Savior of imperfect mankind through ordinances and covenants that have blessed my life that would not be available without His church and His authority.

    We are children of a God who weeps at the behavior and commensurate justice demanded of those who do not trust, do not obey, and do not serve with sure and proven use of their free agency to really figure out what all of this is all about. There are truths and we can know them. There is service and we can perform it. There are covenants and we can make them. There is immortality and eternal life and we can have it. Trust.

    • I have read many of the comments here. When kirk said a student complained to local leaders that is not true. He reported directly to BYUI officials. When kirk said a student complained about the transfiguration, he didnt. It was something else entirely and kirk knows that. Further, if a teacher does not believe in modern day apostles and prophets he has no buisness being at a church school nor would he be asked to teach in his local congregation. Seriously.

  25. Kirk caudle’s problem is what he stated himself, he doesn’t believe in any of the prophets after Joseph Smith. Some of the comments I read discribe how unfair a kid in class got him fired. Seriously. This kid you discribe was a highly educated 62 year old man who understands the gospel as well as anyone. It’s too bad kirk was not honest in his interview because the transfiguration was not what was brought up and he did not go to his local leaders about the matter. I am sure kirk is a good man who just needs to humble himself and come back to Christ?

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